Here is some info on what I've found and done with my forks: this is a link to my fork fix page: click here this is a copy of another's fork fix page: click here and the original link: here Varied fork notes: This are notes from thumpertalk. Torco RFF 5wt. I get it at dealer cost about $7 a bottle. Tried tons of brands and that just works the best. ============================================= http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311764&highlight=fork+oil Here are a couple things I've learned: 1) The '05 YZ's have some problems with the fork seals. Apparently they're not very wide, which reduces stiction but shortens seal life 2) Follow the procedure for putting the fork back on. When you tighten the front axle nut tighten the right fork leg pinch bolts last. If you don't, the fork will bind (won't work smoothly and puts stress on the seals) 3) Stay on those fork bleed screws. I try to do it after every moto, but sometimes I slip and it's every ride. The air pressure in the fork puts a little stress on the seals. I've been running a set on my CRF 250X covering most of the lowers with no ill effects. I have perhaps 3 to 4 inches of the lower tube exposed. I installed the long seal savers completely covering my lower fork legs after I blew out my fork seals in a sandy mudhole. Since using sealsavers I have not had a single problem. I wouldn't have a bike without them. __________________ I got a longer screw for my fork guard support so i could install it over the top of my seal savers....holds them in place good. http://www.planetblade.com/arins/bike/showtell/6.jpg __________________ My friend put on the short seal savers on his bike. Worst mistake he probably did. Adds so much stiction to the forks. Just pull down the dust cover and clean them after you go riding and you will be fine... -Phill He might have installed them incorrectly? Those things don't cause much friction at all. If you leave the bottom part that slides over the inner tubes without any ziptie on them, they will slide up and down nicely. You don't need to cover the whole bottom part of the inner tubes, their design is to act like mud/dust/dirt wipers before the real fork seals go over the inner tubes so that mud/dust/dirt will less likely make it up and into the fork seals. If too much mud/dust/dirt get into the fork seals, then your fork seals may leak - hence the film method of cleaning the fork seals may work for most people. Keep in mind that when using the film method, you are also pushing those particles into the oil and upper tube area where they can get caught up in the valves, so doing the film thing too much isn't a good thing either. The bottom inner tube only needs to be covered about 3 to 4 inches by the seal savers to be effective, anything longer won't hurt, may be harder to clean, may cause too much friction and may hamper the tubes' action. I was debating between the plain sleeves that you install by removing the forks vs. the ones that you can Velcro to the top and bottom of the tubes without having to remove the forks to install them but decided on the sleeves version because they are thinner and more flexible when they glide over the bottom tubes. It seems like the Velcro version wouldn't compress as easily when you bottom out on the forks, i.e. they might get in the way of the forks' action whereas the sleeves are more flexible and compressible. When using either versions of the seal savers, you'll need to clean out those "wipers" after every ride to get all the junk that may be in there out before your next ride - I use the hose, lift the sleeves and shoot low pressure water under the sleeves to force any dirt in there out. Those things seem to save my fork seals where a few of my friends have blown out their fork seals that don't use the seal savers. They are worth the investment IMO. __________________ They sound like they're pretty tight on the lower tubes (they sell the sleeves for smaller diameter tubes and ones for larger diameter tubes, make sure he got the larger ones). If the sleeves have too tight of a fit - maybe soak them in water a few times, do some gentle stretching and they'll loosen up. The SealSavers brand that I used wasn't that tight, I had about 4 inches covering the lower inner tubes and they glide without sticking. Was the brand he used also SealSavers brand? I'm getting the Moose brand for the 06 YZF, hopefully they won't bind like the ones your buddy used. Even if they bind when new like you've described, I bet it will break in and will eventually work nicely. That little bit of binding is nothing comparing to the weight and stress you put on the forks when you're actually riding the bike, there is NO way those flimsy neoprene sleeves will stop the action of the forks IMO. I'm not going to try to convince you to use them, but IMO they seem to work pretty well as far as keeping my fork seals from leaking he may have other factors giving him the stiction....loosen and re-allign the fork tubes in the clamps....then re-tighten. I run a set of Ohlins 48mxf on my wr250f (05) yam. I was advised not to use seal savers as they effect the operation of the fork. Keep the void behind your dust sheilds clean. It makes me wonder why it's only aftermarket manufactureres like acerbis and not the fork manufacturers who make seal savers. __________________ They can't affect the forks anymore than conventional forks that are constantly "trying" to compress gaiters (fork boots) all the time, I can imagine those resistances being VERY similar to each other, i.e. minimal. http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323546&highlight=fork+oil No, I haven't greased the dust wipers. I've heard some say to grease them and others say not to. Since I've never greased them on previous motorcycles, I didn't on this one. Do you subscribe to the grease them because the manual says to philosophy. Or don't grease them because grease attracts and retains dirt philosophy? Always grease under the wipers. If the grease comes out from under the wiper while riding, the wiper is faulty or has dirt under the lip. Clean the wipers free of oil residue with soapy water and a sof toothbrush to keep them from holding dirt against the lip. As for replacing one or both, I see no reason to replace one that isn't leaking on a bike as new as that. I did the left side of my 450's original forks twice, and the right side never leaked. Whenever looking at a fork for the cause of a leaking seal, and especially if resealing, look for any vertical scratches or nicks in the inner tube that are significant enough to be felt with a fingernail. You can sand out most of these with wet/dry paper using a crosshatch pattern. Serious problems that continue to cause a leak can often be fixed by having the tube replated. DO NOT GREASE THE DUST SEAL!!!!!!!!!! If you ride in dusty conditons, the grease WILL attract enough dirt/dust to actually spread some, allowing more crap to get in there. Use a light spray of silicone on the dust seal and wipe off any excess. Dri Slide works even better. And this step is ONLY neccessary if you pulled the tubes apart. The dust seal WILL NOT do it's job if grease is used underneath. You only put a light coating on the oil seal itself. Again, this is for re-installation purposes only. Too much grease on either seal will allow the oil to pass through! Been there, done that. And I too have used the 35mm film trick. Works perfect, BTW. Are you using a pressure washer to clean the bike? If so, stay away from the seals! __________________ I've found that if you do not clean the dust seal and the oil seal with a cleaner, that the sand/dirt/grime, whatever, will cycle back into the oil seal, and give you the illusion that you have a broken seal. When you clean it, make sure everything is squeaky clean. If you used grease, make sure to fully clean out the grease, or again, it will cycle back into the oil seal. I was going bizerk after about a month of wiping after every ride. I became aware that sicne the dust seal was not clean, sand would jsut get shoved back into the oil seal again and again. And not using grease in dusty conditions? I always use grease, with no problems. If you clean it whenever you clean the forks, you will have less problems than not running it. Basically saying, when properly cared for, grease is better. http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294359&highlight=fork+oil While washing my bike today after my weekend ride, I noticed that there was oily dirt all around the front left side of the bike. As I was squirting water all around washing off the big chunks, I thought, "I must have a big chunk of dirt in my fork seal." Think I'd try a little 35mm film on it after I got done, I continued my wash down, using plenty of water. As I finished the forks/front fender/bars, and moved to the steering stem, I found the real problem. The engine oil dipstick was missing! So apparently I suffered a dumbass attack and didn't tighten it back up and lost it during the ride. I plugged the hole and finished washing my bike, then drained the oil out. The oil looked pretty good, but there was a little water in it, and it was down on volume. I only got 900ml out where I had put 1200ml in it. Maybe 50 ml was water. My question is, does anyone know the difference in volume between the "full" and "low" marks on the dipstick? Since I lost about 300-350ml, I'm hoping I didn't starve the oil pump at any time during the ride. Also, can anyone think of anything I should be checking other than the filter and screen? I'm not really up for splitting the cases, because I don't think it got too much dirt in it. I guess when I check the filter and screen I'll know for sure. __________________ About 100ml is the difference between the max and min marks on the dipstick. I can't get 1200ml in mine even when I change the filter! say what? I put 1500 ml in mine every oil change. http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316184&page=2&pp=10&highlight=fork+oil+changing http://motoman393.thumpertalk.com/ Correct me if I am wrong but I have to take my forks off of my bike and then disassemble the forks. No you dont. You remove the wheel, remove the forks, take off the cap, and turn them upside down and pump the dampening rod till none comes out and there is no resistance. Fill back up, pump the rod, measure the oil hieght and assemble back. It is a big waste of money if you are paying someone just to change the fluid. Kind of like motor oil: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have to pull the plug from my bike, change the oil filter and get oil all over my bike, and then add the proper ammount of oil so that my engine will not blow up? or Air filter: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have to remove my seat and clean the filter with gasoline and then apply oil that leavs my hands stickey for a week? I am just wondering when you change the fork oil, do you have to take the forks off of your bike?? Because when I look at my manual (if I am looking at the right thing) it says that I have to take my forks off of my bike, is that right??? __________________ Follow your manual and you can't go wrong! They give you a manual for a reason! There is just different ways to do things, but yes take your forks off the bike. I don't see how you could turn the whole bike upside down to empty the fork tubes! http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220681&highlight=fork+oil+changing im changing thre fork oil on my wr250 and the oil that came out of it looks like very thick gear oil.its cold outside but not that cold in the garage,anyone noticed this when changing fork oil Factory oil is like syrup. I changed mine this weekend, it came out the same way. It was nasty. Dont wanna jack your thread but what type of oil do you use? I have heard 5wt, but is there a oil specifically for this purpose or do you just use regular ole' 5wt oil? I changed the fluid this weekend on mine and it was definitely thick. I used Yamaha 01 suspension fluid but should have used the new Yamaha stuff (can't remember the specific name now) because I have an 05. The new stuff is anti foam/froth or whatever and is recommended for the new forks. Don't get on me too bad but I used to use the Honda fork oil in all my bikes. All 5 wt. I use amsoils 5wt fork oil. It's fully synthetic and at $9/Qt. it is a real bargain. You wont find any other synthetic fork oil for less than $25/qt. oh i'll ding ya on that one. Mobil 1 ATF is a lot less than $10 a quart and works very nice as fork oil. regardless of what oil you use, one of the best things to do is get rid of the oem oil as soon as you get the bike. __________________ thumperfaq.com Me too. Maxima Fork Fluid "85-150" 5wt sells for $10/qt. It doesn't actually say "synthetic" on the label, but it does specify that the base stock has a VI of 150, so I think it's clear that it is. Works very well, and also comes in 7 and 10wt. __________________ Mine came out in 3 phases (ha) Fluid Like filter oil Jelly like globs After changing it, what a world or a difference. __________________ I did say fork oil, not tranny fluid. I have no clue other than amsoils words saying the fork oil is especially designed for fork, and mobils words saying their stuff is especially designed for trannies. But if it works then thats all that matters. I know the 450 guys swear by it. maximas MSDS lists petroleum as the base component, it probably isnt fully synthetic. http://www.maximausa.com/technical/...ork%20Fluid.pdf http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220681&page=2&pp=10&highlight=fork+oil+changing http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119979&highlight=fork+oil+changing The manual doesn't have very good instructions on this. I'm hoping that I don't need to disassemble the forks to just change the oil. Can I just drain it from the bottom or something? How about filling it back up? If someone could just write some quick instructions that would be great. turn the fork upside down and milk it for all it's worth yup I'm serious. gotta take the fork out, remove the spring, turn it upside down, and milk it. You'll see soon as you do it. It's really simple. Use amsoil's fluid, the stuff is great and cheaper. I think Rick has some blurbage on his web page that covers this. www.thumperfaq.com Make sure you pump the damper rod about 40-50 times. It will feel stiff at first because oil is in there doing it's thing. As the oil comes out the stiffness will go away. Quick tip: loosen the top cap of both forks before you remove from them from the bike. once the fork half is off the bike, it's very difficult to hold the round tube and apply enough torque to loosen the top cap. so loosen it when it's on the bike, while the triple clamps still have a good grip on the tube. Make sure you loosen the top triple clamp before loosening the cap. Perfect timing on this topic--should you change the clicker settings to "full off" (that is--no damping and no compression) or the other way, or just leave them alone? Also, when adding the new oil, do so without the spring in the leg, then work the leg up and down to get the new oil back into all the areas, then let it settle for a while to let the air bubbles rise up, then set your oil level. http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=482165#post482165 The procedure I followed for replacing the fork oil was requested, so here it is. Took 3 hours with shooting the breeze, drinking a beer and general screwing around included. Be sure to get this tool before you start: http://www.motionpro.com/suspensiontools.html Fork Oil Level Gauge For checking and adjusting the fork oil level on all conventional and inverted forks. Adjustable ring will measure oil levels from 0-300mm. Syringe has a capacity of 60ml. 08-0121 $32.40 Here's the procedure: Disclaimer: The proceedure below is a general overview, and may have omissions I overlooked or forgot. Please refer to your yamaha YZ 250f manual pages 5-26 through 5-34 for exact specs. Good luck! 1. barely Loosen the fork top cap via the 19mm bolt on top of the fork(while its still in the clamps) 2. Remove the fork from the clamps 3. Put the fork upright (as level as possible) in a bench vise (held by the lower axle mount) 4. completely loosen the top cap from the outer tube, gently lower the outer tube. 5. pull the top of the spring down to get another 19mm wrench on the top of the damper rod nut. It's just below the bumper and cup, and just above the white plastic guide. 6. remove the cap bumper and cup. 7. pull out the spring, and allow to drain in a clean container 8. pour 350cc of new fork oil into a measure-rite container . let it sit for 10 min before pouring into fork. 9. carefully lift fork out of vise and drain. Cycle the damper rod (iner tube with the threads on top) about 20 times. this will clear out old oil from the rebound circuit. once you think its empty, cycle the outer tube 5-10 times, then the damper rod another 5 times. 10. put the fork back in the vise. 11. carefully pour your new oil into the fork, add oil until it is at the top of the silver tube (not the top of the outer tube) 12. cycle the damper rod until it raises and lowers at the same rate. You will see that it moves faster at some times because of the air in the rebound circuit. once it feels like it is operating smoothly, cycle it another 5 times. 13. Cycle the outer tube 5 times (DO NOT RAISE IT MORE THAN 150MM!!) 14. let the fork sit for 5 min. 15. Measure oil height by putting your small steel metric ruler down into the tube, using the top of the outer tube as your guide. Put the ruler 150mm down and pull it out. If there is no oil on the ruler, add more oil. If there is oil on the ruler, measure the MM from the top of the oil on the ruler to the 150mm mark on the ruler. If the top of th oil on the ruler is at 10mm, then 150-10 = 140mm so on an 2003 YZ 250f you are golden if you are shooting for stock oil level. 16. if you have more oil than you need, suck out the extra oil using your newly purchased Motion pro fork oil level tool. 17. Replace the spring, re-tighten the top cap to the damper rod, retighten the top cap to the outer tube. 18. remove the fork from the vise and cycle the fork on the floor to make sure nothing is binding. 19. Re attach the fork to the bike, and tighten the top cap to spec. be sure not to lose access your air bleed screw. 20. Repeat steps 1-19 on the second fork 21. Follow the manuals instructions for tighening triple clamp bolts and installing the front wheel. VERY IMPORTANT. -Pete RCannon has it right. If you aren't tearing the forks apart, that being- removing the cartridge, you are not changing the truely dirty oil. Also, he is correct that it is NOT that hard to take apart the fork to that point. But, it IS much more advanced to tear apart the cartridge assy, so think carefully before proceeding. And, last, the Yamaha manual does a poor job of explaining the fork disassembly. Find a buddy with a recent RM250 and high-jack his Zuke manual. What RCannon sez.... If you don't pull the cartridge out, you are not doing a very good oil change. It's probably only/maybe an additional 5 minutes max to pull the cartridge assy, and you will easily save that time back b/c the fork will empty out quickly. Besides that, you are SURE you have cleaned out your base valve, which is the bottom of the fluid and is the most likely place for yucky stuff to accumulate. I'm not in agreement with dumping solvents in the fork to flush things out. Sometimes seals don't like the solvents and/or the solvents will have a lower evaporation temperature and cause internal pressure buildup. Waiting all night for it to evaporate off,,, that takes too long. Do this- Just make/buy the 14mm hex tool, get out the impact gun, and zip out the base valve. (Note- easy way to make a 14mm tool, is to take a 3/8" hex bolt (grade 5 or better) and weld a nut to the threaded end. The bolt's hex head is the right size for 14mm hex wrench duty.) If you leave the fork assembled, you can get by w/o a damper assy holding tool. Do this- invert the fork, slightly compress the fork, and the impact gun will zip the base valve right out. Be sure to have an oil collection method ready. I've been flushing my forks on an average of every 10 hours with the kerosene/acetone for 5 yamahas over a period of 4 years now. The seals have held up perfectly. Pulling the base valve and mid cylinder is fine, but not really necassary. You cant disassemble either one without a major effort so all you are doing is simply taking them out and putting them back in. You can change them every 5 hrs for all I care and soak them with whatever you want, but you simply will not clean it out as good as when you pull the base valve and take some things apart. It would be impossible to get the base valve as clean as being able to get right at it and give it a date with the cleaner + Mr Airhose. The very fact that you change oil every 10 hrs and do not say, "Sheez, what a flippin' waste of oil" tells me that your oil is indeed ugly at your 10 hr interval. I know that if I tear my forks apart after 10 hrs, the oil would be just fine. Of course, that is after the base valve comes out. Tearing apart the cartridge is not extremely difficult if you have the tool and your cartridge has been apart before. The first time can sometimes be a little touchy. Taking apart the base valve is very easy, but not necessary to clean it out. The piston ports are the most likely location for debris to collect, and unless you have a good look see at it, you will not remove the debris. Furthermore, supposing you have a good charge of solvent in the cartridge, you will need to let it sit until Christmas if you want everything to evaporate off from an assembled fork. But,,,, I don't get it though. WHY would you argue in favor of a method which- a) takes longer, b) Does not get you right at the very spot which is most likely to accumulate the debris? Anyways, do whatever spins your top. Talk all day, but you will not convince ME to change my methods. Just wondering- So how often do you change the shock fluid? http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206213&highlight=fork+oil+changing Which fork Oil Should I get. I am putting in heavier springs and I am changing the fork oil at the same time, I use Motorex 5W. http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110534&highlight=fork+oil+changing I think they run the thinnest wt as it is. Anything more and the harshness seems to come up. I put belray 10 wt in, and rode like twice before I had to go back with the yamy 5 wt. I have read a few being happy with amsoil suspension fluid as well, and quite a bit cheaper. I will probably give that a shot next change. race-tech sells theirs as 2.5 - 5 wt. ed, the thicker the oil the harsher the forks. At least thats what I felt. It seems to slow the fork action down, and the result is more direct connection with the bump, instead of dissipating by converting the energy into fork travel. Spectro has a "Golden Spectro Very Light" 2.5wt fork fluid. From what I have gathered in researching this is that the difference b/t running a 2.5wt and 5wt are very small. Almost no difference. I am still going to try 2.5wt just to see for myself. I just changed the stock fluid out with Bel Ray 5wt. I also went to some heavier springs at the same time. It does feel better, but not as good as I was hoping. I am curious to see how well I can get the stock YZF valving to work off road. I ride a 03 in New england enduros....very rocky and rooty. I have 2 sets of forks....sent one to a famous suspension house that rymes with "trajectory deflection"...they were terrible ( I've sent back twice and they are still bad!) I have my other stockers with 5 wt Spectro at 145mm oil height with compression set at 16 for woods and 10 for moto...and they are great.Take them apart and clean everything during the oil change....you will notice a big improvement! BTW...I'm 185lbs A rider http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124194&highlight=fork+oil+changing http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110886&highlight=fork+oil+changing Already have forks off of bike. If I'm understanding the manual correctly, this is what I need to do and can expect: 1. Bleed off the air through the bleeder valve. 2. COMPLETELY remove the big cap with nut on it (fork cap bolt). I'm a little confused here because the manual talks about holding a lock nut while removing the cap. I THINK they are talking about removing the cap from the push rod in the next step. BUT, I want to make sure I can turn the cap (removing it) without bending the damper rod. So, what's happening down at the damper rods other end while I'm turning the cap bolt off? Does it spin freely somehow? 3. Remove cap from damper rod by holding damper rod nut with ground down 17mm wrench. This should allow for removal of the spring while keeping the damper rod in tact and in place. Also could leave in the spring guide. Question is, How will I get access to the spring and damper rod nut which intuitively will not be accessible because it will be in the fork tube? Can you compress the spring with your fingers to get access to the nut? Is the only reason I need to remove the cap so I can remove the spring so that I can get an accurate oil level measurement later? Assuming all this is correct... 4. Now I can stop tearing things apart and start putting back together. 5.Make sure spring guide is installed. 6. Measure to make sure damper rod nut height is within specs. 7. Compress fork fully. 8. Fill to Outer tube top surface. 9. Follow instructions about pumping. 10. Measure oil level and fill to recommended specs. When I do my final measurement, is it with the fork completely compressed? If not what is the correct fork position for measuring? For a softer suspension, don't I want less oil? So if the recommended oil level is between 80 and 150 mm, the if I use the 150 mm leve that would be the softest... (more air chamber?). 11. Loosen rebound damper adjust screw. Why is this necessary? 12. Install and torque cap bolt. 13. Install and torque forks onto bike. So what am I missing? Where are my misconceptions? Gonna tackle this in the morning so all help appreciated! Thanks. Eddie Oh yeah, so when do I dump the old oil and what's the best way to clean old contaminated oil out and purge the system completely of old oil. Put the fork leg back in the bottom triple clamp, and snug up the pinch bolt. Spin the fork cap off, loosen the pinch bolt and remove the fork leg. Tip the leg upside down into a container to drain any oil from inside the leg. Slide the upper leg down to fully expose the nut underside the cap. Put your ground down wrench in between the spring coil to grab the nut underside the fork cap. Now, spin the cap off the rod while holding the nut (underside the cap). Go ahead and pull the spring off. The rest of what you have is fine and correct. If you remove the fork without first loosening the fork cap then you would have to put the fork tube in a vise in order to loosen the cap. Much easier to just use the bottom triple clamp as a vise. When installing, make sure you tighten the cap BEFORE you tighten up the TOP triple clamp pinch bolts. Tightening the top bolts first makes it difficult to properly tighten the fork cap. You can compress the spring enough by hand to slip in the thin wrench. I thoroughly clean everything when changing oil or replacing seals. Putting the forks back to gether with residual contaminated old)oil on the parts defeats the purpose. Make sure and take your time. You do not want to "nick" the inner tube while doing this job. The manual on my 02 does a good job in explaining this job. Good luck With the bike on a stand, loosen the front axle nut and the pinch bolts. Have someone spin the front tire. While the front tire is spinning, apply the front brake. Do this about 3 times. After doing this, tighten the axle nut and pinch bolts. Applying the brake while the tire is spinning allows the forks to aligh themselves, thus eliminating any binding. Rick- That makes sense about the backing out the clickers. You get the prize cause I NEVER would have known that cause I just did it because it said to do it. Thanks for sitting on your bike for me. Guess I need to eliminate the noise. Bandit- Well I sort of waited ten minutes. Kind of guesstimated it. I didn't see any signs of bubbles so thought I was OK. You could be right. Another thing is when I did my first fork I lost a little fluid because I didn't know to leave the damper rod up when I installed the spring so after I dropped the spring in I had to pull it out again. Should have remeasured dangit. NH Kevin- What do you mean by "Prime"? Are you talking about when I move damper up and down and outer tube up and down at assembly? If so, I did all that. So you think the noise will go away on it's own huh? Maybe I'll ride it a little and see what happens. Maybe I need to pull and start over. Shouldn't be bad now that I've done it. No, I did not put new seals in so that doesn't explain the stiction either. Matt/VetPlus- I'm gonna try loosening to see if stiction goes away and I'll use your techniques for tightening everything up.